Outside Caffeine Crawl, our main company, The LAB, used to do monthly Q&A interviews within the beverage industry, and the goal was to bring additional insight and perspective through those posted interviews. Subject matters expanded outside of what is trendy and geeky within specialty beverages. We hope through this new interview series helps the industry be a strong part of the change we need. We encourage healthy dialogue fueled by these interviews, and please reach out.
Kansas City has an incredible coffee scene, and most U.S. coffee lovers know that. This is where we are based and got our start. Even with the local scene striving at one time a lot of the shops had the same vibes and similar coffee footprints. Cafe Corazon in KCMO near the KU Med Center changed the game. Miel Castagna-Herrera brought a lot of her inspiration, passions, and culture to this comfy shop. From menu items to staff to creating an open, welcoming space Miel and her family (her husband and daughter are involved) have created something special. I visit with Miel learning more about how she got to opening the Cafe Corazon doors.
- Jason Burton
- Jason Burton
Jason Burton: What are some ways you have incorporated Latin American culture from your South American family history into the shop?
Miel Castagna-Herrera: I am 1st generation American who grew up in Taos, New Mexico with an Argentine father. My father is gone now but he was an artist: a painter, sculptor, and all-around renaissance man. He was a force to be reckoned with and it felt important that we reflect him in the shop with art and many Argentine choices on the menu. I drank yerba mate and ate empanadas and spread loads of dulce de leche on everything growing up with my dad. We wanted to make sure that Café Corazón showcased these Argentine classics. We serve yerba mate traditionally with mate and bombilla and thermos. We showcase 11 different yerbas from 4 different South American counties. We felt it was imperative to bring the true yerba mate experience to KC and be the first and only yerba mate house in the midwest and one of only a handful in the nation. We also showcase delicious Argentine empanadas and pastries from a local Argentine baker who hails from Patagonia, Pan Caliente KC. Also we have a Dulce de Leche Latte that is amazing. Our daughter Dulcinea is an amazing artist just like my father, and we showcase her paintings in Café Córazon.
And, what has been more Mexican-specific ingredients and activities from your husband’s family, plus KC’s Latinx history, that has been incorporated?
Curtis's family is from Guadalajara on his father's side and his Mom's side is Mescalero Apache from New Mexico. Curtis' family worked the fields in Western Kansas picking various crops throughout his childhood and we felt it was important to mirror and incorporate the flavors of the countries that coffee comes from into the coffee menu. We make a great effort to mirror the flavors and tastes that the farmers, pickers, and people of those countries experience in their daily lives- tying them to our coffee. Some specifically Mexican flavors that Curtis grew up with that we incorporated into drinks are the Horchata Latte, Mocha Azteca and Atole Latte. With the Horchata Latte, we hand make horchata and add a shot and voila, it's a real taste of Mexico. Also the in the Mocha Azteca we use artisanal Mexican chocolate with cinnamon and peanuts in the Oaxacan style that comes directly from a family in Guadalajara. Both Curtis and I grew up drinking Atole, which is a Mexican (indigenous originally) cornmeal drink that is sweetened. We use organic blue cornmeal from Chiuihaua, Mexico, and add a shot and a little maple syrup and the Atole Latte tastes like waffles in a cup.
JB: What are your personal drinking routines and interests like?
MCH: At home, we drink both coffee and yerba mate every day. We start the morning with a fresh ground pot of our Córazon homebrew. If we are at home and not at the cafe we will take our cafetera (mocha pot) and make a quick Cubano with whipped raw sugar and in the mid-morning. We always have a thermos of yerba mate in the afternoon, that we usually share (that is the beauty of the yerba mate ritual, it is shared). Lately, as it gets warmer we are having our mate as Terere (iced). We are definitley a highly caffeinated gente!
JB: Did you picture yourself working in or around coffee ten years ago? What was the moment that really pulled you in?
MCH: Honestly no, we never pictured ourselves working in coffee until about 4 years ago. We always spent lots of time in coffee shops and Curtis and I had a discussion one day that sealed our fate. We were at a coffee spot looking at the menu and we were like, "WTF, why is it that all this coffee they serve from Columbia, Guatemala, Peru, Brazil, etc. doesn't have any connection to Latinx culture? What's wrong with the coffee picture in this country?" We researched and found that Latin America accounts for over 60% of coffee production. So we decided that not only did we need to turn on the midwest to yerba mate but also to give the coffee bean a voice by letting it sing in its own language. We also felt it was time to raise our hands and say as Latinos, " yo, we are here and this is what we are about, and we claim this and this is really ours". We aim to connect coffee to the cultures it comes from.
JB: Dealing with COVID has been a challenge for everyone in our industry. Can you share some of the hurdles and even accomplishments from this last year as a small business owner?
MCH: Since we only opened in September 2019 we were only opened 4 months until COVID hit. We still don't know what a "normal" year looks like. We were just getting started and we closed for 2 months to wrap our heads and plans around the pandemic and how to approach it if we opened back up. Luckily the PPP loan gave us the means to open back up and with a real airtight plan on how to handle cleaning procedures, masks, signs, sanitation, and cleaning. The awesome thing is that when we reopened the public support was unbelievable. It seems people became much more willing to support small busineess, knowing that small businesses were hit hardest by COVID. Although it's still a daily challeng, we are doing well and are even opening a second location. The pandemic created an opportunity to rent a space in the Crossroads for at a much cheaper rent for the first couple of years and so we thought we better jump on the opportunity and just find a way to make it work. And we are doing it! Within the next couple of months Café Corazón Crossroads will open with a focus on Latinx AND indegineous cultures on coffee and food.
JB: Share with us two celebrity-level customers you’ve had.
MCH: We get a lot of the KC Sporting Players in our place. Graham Zusi, Ilie Sánchez and Roger Espinosa are regulars. Also Julian Marquez UFCs "the Cuban jissle Crisis" is an great supporter. Earl J Watson is also someone we see alot when he is in town. Mostly those who have Latinx roots are the celebrity-level cutojmers who frequent Córazon because it feels like home to them.
Miel Castagna-Herrera: I am 1st generation American who grew up in Taos, New Mexico with an Argentine father. My father is gone now but he was an artist: a painter, sculptor, and all-around renaissance man. He was a force to be reckoned with and it felt important that we reflect him in the shop with art and many Argentine choices on the menu. I drank yerba mate and ate empanadas and spread loads of dulce de leche on everything growing up with my dad. We wanted to make sure that Café Corazón showcased these Argentine classics. We serve yerba mate traditionally with mate and bombilla and thermos. We showcase 11 different yerbas from 4 different South American counties. We felt it was imperative to bring the true yerba mate experience to KC and be the first and only yerba mate house in the midwest and one of only a handful in the nation. We also showcase delicious Argentine empanadas and pastries from a local Argentine baker who hails from Patagonia, Pan Caliente KC. Also we have a Dulce de Leche Latte that is amazing. Our daughter Dulcinea is an amazing artist just like my father, and we showcase her paintings in Café Córazon.
And, what has been more Mexican-specific ingredients and activities from your husband’s family, plus KC’s Latinx history, that has been incorporated?
Curtis's family is from Guadalajara on his father's side and his Mom's side is Mescalero Apache from New Mexico. Curtis' family worked the fields in Western Kansas picking various crops throughout his childhood and we felt it was important to mirror and incorporate the flavors of the countries that coffee comes from into the coffee menu. We make a great effort to mirror the flavors and tastes that the farmers, pickers, and people of those countries experience in their daily lives- tying them to our coffee. Some specifically Mexican flavors that Curtis grew up with that we incorporated into drinks are the Horchata Latte, Mocha Azteca and Atole Latte. With the Horchata Latte, we hand make horchata and add a shot and voila, it's a real taste of Mexico. Also the in the Mocha Azteca we use artisanal Mexican chocolate with cinnamon and peanuts in the Oaxacan style that comes directly from a family in Guadalajara. Both Curtis and I grew up drinking Atole, which is a Mexican (indigenous originally) cornmeal drink that is sweetened. We use organic blue cornmeal from Chiuihaua, Mexico, and add a shot and a little maple syrup and the Atole Latte tastes like waffles in a cup.
JB: What are your personal drinking routines and interests like?
MCH: At home, we drink both coffee and yerba mate every day. We start the morning with a fresh ground pot of our Córazon homebrew. If we are at home and not at the cafe we will take our cafetera (mocha pot) and make a quick Cubano with whipped raw sugar and in the mid-morning. We always have a thermos of yerba mate in the afternoon, that we usually share (that is the beauty of the yerba mate ritual, it is shared). Lately, as it gets warmer we are having our mate as Terere (iced). We are definitley a highly caffeinated gente!
JB: Did you picture yourself working in or around coffee ten years ago? What was the moment that really pulled you in?
MCH: Honestly no, we never pictured ourselves working in coffee until about 4 years ago. We always spent lots of time in coffee shops and Curtis and I had a discussion one day that sealed our fate. We were at a coffee spot looking at the menu and we were like, "WTF, why is it that all this coffee they serve from Columbia, Guatemala, Peru, Brazil, etc. doesn't have any connection to Latinx culture? What's wrong with the coffee picture in this country?" We researched and found that Latin America accounts for over 60% of coffee production. So we decided that not only did we need to turn on the midwest to yerba mate but also to give the coffee bean a voice by letting it sing in its own language. We also felt it was time to raise our hands and say as Latinos, " yo, we are here and this is what we are about, and we claim this and this is really ours". We aim to connect coffee to the cultures it comes from.
JB: Dealing with COVID has been a challenge for everyone in our industry. Can you share some of the hurdles and even accomplishments from this last year as a small business owner?
MCH: Since we only opened in September 2019 we were only opened 4 months until COVID hit. We still don't know what a "normal" year looks like. We were just getting started and we closed for 2 months to wrap our heads and plans around the pandemic and how to approach it if we opened back up. Luckily the PPP loan gave us the means to open back up and with a real airtight plan on how to handle cleaning procedures, masks, signs, sanitation, and cleaning. The awesome thing is that when we reopened the public support was unbelievable. It seems people became much more willing to support small busineess, knowing that small businesses were hit hardest by COVID. Although it's still a daily challeng, we are doing well and are even opening a second location. The pandemic created an opportunity to rent a space in the Crossroads for at a much cheaper rent for the first couple of years and so we thought we better jump on the opportunity and just find a way to make it work. And we are doing it! Within the next couple of months Café Corazón Crossroads will open with a focus on Latinx AND indegineous cultures on coffee and food.
JB: Share with us two celebrity-level customers you’ve had.
MCH: We get a lot of the KC Sporting Players in our place. Graham Zusi, Ilie Sánchez and Roger Espinosa are regulars. Also Julian Marquez UFCs "the Cuban jissle Crisis" is an great supporter. Earl J Watson is also someone we see alot when he is in town. Mostly those who have Latinx roots are the celebrity-level cutojmers who frequent Córazon because it feels like home to them.
We have been working with Planetary Design for a few years now. They created the French Presses, Airscapes, and drink tumblers we carry. Before that I got an early introduction to the company around 2006 doing the branding and marketing for a regional barista competition where I was able to work with a few of their products. It was my first French Press that was branded. I still have it actually.
I've been able to work and connect with several members of Planetary Design's team and one of those individuals, Parker Meadows, intrigued me with his balance of work and exploration with nature. The company as a whole embraces the outdoors and how their products play a role in that experience for the consumer. I knew from his travels and types of work trips there would be some intriguing stories for him to share. Parker addresses his history with the company, love for nature, and of course coffee in our Q and A below. - Jason Burton
I've been able to work and connect with several members of Planetary Design's team and one of those individuals, Parker Meadows, intrigued me with his balance of work and exploration with nature. The company as a whole embraces the outdoors and how their products play a role in that experience for the consumer. I knew from his travels and types of work trips there would be some intriguing stories for him to share. Parker addresses his history with the company, love for nature, and of course coffee in our Q and A below. - Jason Burton
Jason Burton: You work with a company and brands that have such a connection to nature and the outdoors. What inspires and influences you with your personal connection to nature?
Parker Meadows: Nature has always been a cornerstone in my life. Growing up in rural Georgia, visiting my grandparents in the Alleghany Mountains of Virginia, and now living in Montana: the outdoors have always been a source of calm through the storms of life. As chaotic as nature can be, it creates an incredible connection that anchors me certain times and places. I have never had a memory for movies or screens; it literally takes me 3/4 of a film to realize I've already seen it! However, I can instantly recall the smell of mountain laurel crossing into North Carolina from Georgia for work as a teenager, or crisp evergreens surrounding the lakes and rivers in Western Montana. Those sights, smells, and sounds have distinct, unforgettable memories tied to them that can pull me back in an instant. For that reason, I find solace and contemptment from travel and adventure rather than through more static activities. I'm fortunate to have found a company and work with others that enjoy and recognize the importance of the outdoors just as I do; both for recreation, and for the focus on preservation.
JB: Two part question for you. What is your go to coffee taste, whether a certain origin, flavor profile, roaster, etc? And, if you could pick any location in the country to have that ideal cup of coffee where would that be at this moment?
PM: I was given the opportunity to be the first BruTrek driver and travel the country for coffee and outdoors. Granted, it was a ton of work and I was really a travelling salesman, but I was afforded perhaps one of the most singularly unique jobs available. I visited somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 roasters over a year and a half! To say I've tried most variants would be an understatement. Sometimes I would go on a light roast pourover kick, other times a medium/dark french press, and sometimes, yes, a flavor-added latte. That said, there were some standouts. I had the most amazing Yemeni shot from Goodman Roasters in Chattanooga, a fine Geisha pourover from Sump in St Louis, excellent Turkish from Folklores in San Francisco, a Huila region (COL) that I pressed from Sweet Bloom in Denver. The list goes on like the outdoors, this has given me very connected memories of the people and places that produced them. If I have to choose from a lineup, I usually go with Colombian Huila, but I can't pick just one. If I could be anywhere having that ideal cup right now, it'd be from Goodman on a porch in Appalachia gazing out over a hollow at sunrise.
JB: I can completely relate to this answer. I compare coffee to the way I approach music. I have to slightly change what I'm drinking almost every single bag. I fall into the 8 oz. latte routine when I'm at a shop and just need coffee.
JB: If you could go canoeing with one person and have one beverage with you, what is the who, what, and where?
PM: I'd be in that canoe with my Pawpaw, Manuel Meadows, and a thermos full of percolator coffee with a splash or 3 of bourbon. 😉 We would have a couple of trout, and a bushel of watercress near the Jackson River in Virginia at the old poor farm. With any luck we would have some Lion's Manes, too. I can remember as a kid having that coffee early in the morning before we would go out to forage or fish. Coffee and the wilderness, best of all the worlds!
JB: You have worked in several different positions and roles with Planetary Design. How do you feel like that has made you a stronger teammate, and would you recommend that approach to the generation entering the workforce next?
PM: I feel somewhat unique in this regard. Most of my peers have held more jobs than they have fingers. Instead, while I have a diverse work history, I have stuck with Planetary Design for almost 9 years now. I started when I was 22 working on the floor while simultaneously holding other part time jobs. I have since done just about every job in the company. As a teammate, I think it's been invaluable that I am able to cover or direct for just about every position. I have been able to learn about the full scope of a business instead of being pigeon-holed in one particular area or field. From shipping, ops, graphic design, customer service, sales, and supply chain - I have always sought further opportunity to grow and learn; thankfully Planetary Design has accommodated and encouraged that urge. I carry some pride in being one of the only in my generation to take this approach. There are many ways to go about a job and growth; work ethic and curiosity have generally guided my path. That, and the want to see something I am involved with flourish to potential. It isn't always fun or peachy, but seeing a company grow that you have invested so much time in is massively rewarding. To each their own, but I have really enjoyed the ride so far and would recommend patience to others that choose this sort of workforce approach.
Parker Meadows: Nature has always been a cornerstone in my life. Growing up in rural Georgia, visiting my grandparents in the Alleghany Mountains of Virginia, and now living in Montana: the outdoors have always been a source of calm through the storms of life. As chaotic as nature can be, it creates an incredible connection that anchors me certain times and places. I have never had a memory for movies or screens; it literally takes me 3/4 of a film to realize I've already seen it! However, I can instantly recall the smell of mountain laurel crossing into North Carolina from Georgia for work as a teenager, or crisp evergreens surrounding the lakes and rivers in Western Montana. Those sights, smells, and sounds have distinct, unforgettable memories tied to them that can pull me back in an instant. For that reason, I find solace and contemptment from travel and adventure rather than through more static activities. I'm fortunate to have found a company and work with others that enjoy and recognize the importance of the outdoors just as I do; both for recreation, and for the focus on preservation.
JB: Two part question for you. What is your go to coffee taste, whether a certain origin, flavor profile, roaster, etc? And, if you could pick any location in the country to have that ideal cup of coffee where would that be at this moment?
PM: I was given the opportunity to be the first BruTrek driver and travel the country for coffee and outdoors. Granted, it was a ton of work and I was really a travelling salesman, but I was afforded perhaps one of the most singularly unique jobs available. I visited somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 roasters over a year and a half! To say I've tried most variants would be an understatement. Sometimes I would go on a light roast pourover kick, other times a medium/dark french press, and sometimes, yes, a flavor-added latte. That said, there were some standouts. I had the most amazing Yemeni shot from Goodman Roasters in Chattanooga, a fine Geisha pourover from Sump in St Louis, excellent Turkish from Folklores in San Francisco, a Huila region (COL) that I pressed from Sweet Bloom in Denver. The list goes on like the outdoors, this has given me very connected memories of the people and places that produced them. If I have to choose from a lineup, I usually go with Colombian Huila, but I can't pick just one. If I could be anywhere having that ideal cup right now, it'd be from Goodman on a porch in Appalachia gazing out over a hollow at sunrise.
JB: I can completely relate to this answer. I compare coffee to the way I approach music. I have to slightly change what I'm drinking almost every single bag. I fall into the 8 oz. latte routine when I'm at a shop and just need coffee.
JB: If you could go canoeing with one person and have one beverage with you, what is the who, what, and where?
PM: I'd be in that canoe with my Pawpaw, Manuel Meadows, and a thermos full of percolator coffee with a splash or 3 of bourbon. 😉 We would have a couple of trout, and a bushel of watercress near the Jackson River in Virginia at the old poor farm. With any luck we would have some Lion's Manes, too. I can remember as a kid having that coffee early in the morning before we would go out to forage or fish. Coffee and the wilderness, best of all the worlds!
JB: You have worked in several different positions and roles with Planetary Design. How do you feel like that has made you a stronger teammate, and would you recommend that approach to the generation entering the workforce next?
PM: I feel somewhat unique in this regard. Most of my peers have held more jobs than they have fingers. Instead, while I have a diverse work history, I have stuck with Planetary Design for almost 9 years now. I started when I was 22 working on the floor while simultaneously holding other part time jobs. I have since done just about every job in the company. As a teammate, I think it's been invaluable that I am able to cover or direct for just about every position. I have been able to learn about the full scope of a business instead of being pigeon-holed in one particular area or field. From shipping, ops, graphic design, customer service, sales, and supply chain - I have always sought further opportunity to grow and learn; thankfully Planetary Design has accommodated and encouraged that urge. I carry some pride in being one of the only in my generation to take this approach. There are many ways to go about a job and growth; work ethic and curiosity have generally guided my path. That, and the want to see something I am involved with flourish to potential. It isn't always fun or peachy, but seeing a company grow that you have invested so much time in is massively rewarding. To each their own, but I have really enjoyed the ride so far and would recommend patience to others that choose this sort of workforce approach.
Memphis has a deep history in food and music. The makeup of this city that hugs the Mississippi River has always been an underdog and often overlooked. We think highly of the Memphis coffee scene, and there's a lot more to it than good beans. The people behind the coffee businesses, similar to the music and food scene, has made Memphis a shining beacon in our opinion.
One of those shops is Muggin Coffeehouse in Whitehaven, a South Memphis neighborhood. Co-owner of the shop, Mary Olds, attended our first Caffeine Crawl in Memphis, which was late 2019. This was before they opened as a shop. We've been watching Muggin power through opening a shop during COVID, and becoming a valuable space for the local community - something we always love seeing. We're cheering on this wife and husband team (Ken is the other co-owner), and looking forward to a 2021 Crawl back in Memphis! Enjoy our Q and A with Mary, and first Interview Series of the new year.
- Jason Burton
One of those shops is Muggin Coffeehouse in Whitehaven, a South Memphis neighborhood. Co-owner of the shop, Mary Olds, attended our first Caffeine Crawl in Memphis, which was late 2019. This was before they opened as a shop. We've been watching Muggin power through opening a shop during COVID, and becoming a valuable space for the local community - something we always love seeing. We're cheering on this wife and husband team (Ken is the other co-owner), and looking forward to a 2021 Crawl back in Memphis! Enjoy our Q and A with Mary, and first Interview Series of the new year.
- Jason Burton
Jason Burton: As a coffee shop owner what has been the most unexpected part of running the business, besides 2020's surprises?
Mary Olds: With this being the first coffee shop for Muggin, we did not know what to expect. The biggest surprise was the amount of support received nationally. We believed in Whitehaven and knew the community would support their coffee shop.
We did not expect to be shipping coffee and merchandise as far as Alaska and Hawaii. We have received support and customers from the majority of the states in the U.S. The other surprise which was a result of COVID, and was the amount of resourcefulness we had to get in terms of supplies. It was a challenge at times to get some of the supplies needed to run our day to day operation, so we had to have several avenues in place as alternatives.
JB: How would you describe Memphis's coffee scene from the perspective of coffee shops, and then that as a coffee consumer?
MO: We would describe the Memphis coffee scene as burgeoning. There are parts of the city where you have really good coffee shops that are encouraging community and conversations. I think where we can do better is linking all of us together as a cohesive community. There is room for everyone.
As a coffee consumer, the coffee scene is so spread out - it can be frustrating at times. If I plan to visit a local shop, I have to plan my day around it. I believe coffee shops should be a part of the neighborhood. It is where people go to start their day - a mid-day pick me up, meet with friends, have a meeting, etc. I know that COVID prevented a lot of this from happening, but I hope we are able to get back to it one day.
JB: What area of the coffee industry from your experience seems the most underrepresented for Black people to coffee consumers viewing marketing online? What are some ideas or thoughts on how that should change within the industry?
MO: Accessibility both in location and coffee culture. Traditionally coffee shops are going to be in gentrified neighborhoods, town centers and busy thoroughfares. Our goal is to make coffee accessible to all.
JB: Where are you getting your best inspiration from for running a coffee business? Do you spend more time studying the industry news, or outside the industry?
MO: It’s going to sound cliche but inspiration is all around. Some of it comes from our kids. Our daughter loves coffee (don’t judge us 😀), and sometimes she comes up with great combinations for beverages. We talk with other coffee shop owners both in our hometown of Memphis and other parts of the U.S. That’s how we learn firsthand what trends are in other parts of the country and can bring those to share with Memphis.
Mary Olds: With this being the first coffee shop for Muggin, we did not know what to expect. The biggest surprise was the amount of support received nationally. We believed in Whitehaven and knew the community would support their coffee shop.
We did not expect to be shipping coffee and merchandise as far as Alaska and Hawaii. We have received support and customers from the majority of the states in the U.S. The other surprise which was a result of COVID, and was the amount of resourcefulness we had to get in terms of supplies. It was a challenge at times to get some of the supplies needed to run our day to day operation, so we had to have several avenues in place as alternatives.
JB: How would you describe Memphis's coffee scene from the perspective of coffee shops, and then that as a coffee consumer?
MO: We would describe the Memphis coffee scene as burgeoning. There are parts of the city where you have really good coffee shops that are encouraging community and conversations. I think where we can do better is linking all of us together as a cohesive community. There is room for everyone.
As a coffee consumer, the coffee scene is so spread out - it can be frustrating at times. If I plan to visit a local shop, I have to plan my day around it. I believe coffee shops should be a part of the neighborhood. It is where people go to start their day - a mid-day pick me up, meet with friends, have a meeting, etc. I know that COVID prevented a lot of this from happening, but I hope we are able to get back to it one day.
JB: What area of the coffee industry from your experience seems the most underrepresented for Black people to coffee consumers viewing marketing online? What are some ideas or thoughts on how that should change within the industry?
MO: Accessibility both in location and coffee culture. Traditionally coffee shops are going to be in gentrified neighborhoods, town centers and busy thoroughfares. Our goal is to make coffee accessible to all.
JB: Where are you getting your best inspiration from for running a coffee business? Do you spend more time studying the industry news, or outside the industry?
MO: It’s going to sound cliche but inspiration is all around. Some of it comes from our kids. Our daughter loves coffee (don’t judge us 😀), and sometimes she comes up with great combinations for beverages. We talk with other coffee shop owners both in our hometown of Memphis and other parts of the U.S. That’s how we learn firsthand what trends are in other parts of the country and can bring those to share with Memphis.
Our last interview was with Vanessa of Burly and the Bean, who moved her coffee business with her husband across state lines and hundreds of miles. Troy Lucas and his wife, Jennica, did the same thing with Lucas Roasting, but for slightly different reasons. Their new chapter took them from Virgina to New Hampshire for a new start.
Troy and I met at a coffee event over ten years ago, and through the years are always watching each other's entrepreneur journey as we both hustle in the small business world. It's great to hear the details of his new home and what he is doing for his community.
- Jason Burton
Troy and I met at a coffee event over ten years ago, and through the years are always watching each other's entrepreneur journey as we both hustle in the small business world. It's great to hear the details of his new home and what he is doing for his community.
- Jason Burton
Jason Burton: You made quite the move for your roasting company going from Virginia to New Hampshire. What brought you and your family to that decision, and what was that process like?
Troy Lucas: My wife, Jennica, actually grew up here in New Hampshire, in Epsom until she was 12. At that time her Grandparents and her Mom, Dad, Aunt and Uncle moved south to the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. She never felt like it was home like New Hampshire had been in her childhood. So, she had always yearned to come back to NH. That was our starting point. We've visited her other NH family members that remained here many times over the years, and our whole family just really fell in love with NH more than we were feeling the need to stay in VA. NH's small independent business mindset is incredible here, whereas the area we lived in VA was full of big-box and corporate franchise mentality. We LOVE the Mom and Pop feel of Wolfeboro - the Oldest Summer Resort Town in America - where you only find one or two chain stores. Everything else here is independently owned and operated family businesses.
The actual process of finding a new home and business home community was actually a LOT of work. We drove all over NH as a family looking for the right little town after we had done research on communities. We ended up driving about 600+ miles in all directions in the state and saw a ton of great places, but nothing grabbed us like the small business lakeside community of Wolfeboro. With kids in school we not only had to look for a suitable business home, but also a school system for them. In the end, all has worked out fantastic, but the move itself of business and home at the same time was definitely the hardest thing we've ever done. Had we stayed in VA, we had so many wholesale business inquiries coming our way that our business would have simply required a bigger facility and bigger equipment to keep up with all the wholesale business that we were doing. Relocating meant figuring out all the details of shipping coffee to clients that used to be face to face, and of course it meant that we weren't "local" to that area anymore. With the push for "local" economies we worked with our many VA clients as long as we could, but certainly understood when some of them moved to other roasting companies that were closer to them. Where we used to be about 85% wholesale and 15% online retail, we now have a business model that is split about 40% wholesale, 40% retail in our cafe and 20% online retail.
JB: How has the move changed your direction or focus as a coffee professional?
TL: Our move to NH changed the structure of our business in that we used to be mostly wholesale, but now we also have a retail cafe in the front of our roastery. That has changed things dramatically in the sense that we have retail hours which we never had in VA, but it is a welcome change in that we play the part of "coffee educator" on a much more personal level every time someone has questions about specialty coffee. We love being coffee educators every day.
JB: You seem to be very active with promoting change and social equality. That's actually how you and I connected originally. What has Lucas Roasting been involved in recently, and what are some changes locally you'd like to see?
TL: Well, for starters, my professional background before coffee was working in mental health, and my formal training is in mediation and conflict management, so social equality have always been a big focus in my life. When Jennica and I started Lucas Roasting Company, one of our biggest focal points was coffee farmer inequality. Little did we know how intertwined industry issues are and how little we'd be able to actually impact on the front of equity in the coffee continuum. We continue to do as much as we can to educate people on that inequality and doing what we can in our green coffee purchases. Locally, in Wolfeboro, we went to a public Black Lives Matter gathering after George Floyd's death, and we know people in town know where we stand, but it still doesn't feel like we've accomplished much. Our state and our town is mostly white, which is a hard thing for us sometimes since we came from a community that might have had 40 different cultures represented. We live in a resort community - one that is meant to be a destination - and we see many people struggling and slipping through the cracks with lack of affordable housing and lack of upwardly mobile jobs here. I see us getting involved in more discussion in the future around those needs here.
Currently, I am a "Champion" (a fundraising ambassador) for Best Buddies New Hampshire with a little girl and personal friend named Chloe who has Down syndrome, and we are working from September through November to raise awareness and money for that organization. It's an international organization working with people who have all kinds of developmental disabilities, but one of its biggest overall goals is to make sure people are included and that people develop empathy, something sorely lacking in much of our society currently. I'm including the link to my Best Buddies web page if anyone is interested in making a donation. https://www.bestbuddieschampion.org/newhampshire/supporting/#Troy
JB: What are some ideas or thoughts that you think could easily be implemented into the specialty coffee industry to help make a change for the better?
TL: We've thought long and hard for the last 13 years of our company existence in specialty soffee about so many issues, and we have learned that this is a VERY complex industry. One of the things we've seen deteriorate in the 13 years we've been in this industry is flashy marketing agendas taking the place of real substance within companies. The "real substance" is where even we fall short sometimes because the world has changed drastically since we entered specialty coffee. People, in general, seem to be more interested in the immediacy of feeling good in the moment instead of doing long-term work. What I mean by that is that people just want a good cup of coffee or a great espresso, but the general interest in what it has done for another human being on the other side of the world feels like it's getting lost in translation. That circles all the way back around to a main cornerstone of why we entered the coffee industry, and that message of treating others equitably in the trickle-down economics of the price one is paying for a bag of beans or even a cup seems watered down in translation. We don't really know how to change that educational piece when our customers are in a hurry to grab their drinks and usually don't have time for conversation, but for the ones who will listen, we're glad to talk about the front end of the coffee industry and all the challenges facing farming families around the world.
In a world self absorbed with me, me, me, we're happy to be a part of an industry that has so many people in the process of getting coffee from field to cup. We're just glad we can be regular storytellers with our customers so they recognize the industry is about way more than what Lucas Roasting Company does within it. That would be my biggest hope for the future of coffee - that we as companies on the finished side of the product always connect the dots back to its beginnings. We feel that is very important.
Troy Lucas: My wife, Jennica, actually grew up here in New Hampshire, in Epsom until she was 12. At that time her Grandparents and her Mom, Dad, Aunt and Uncle moved south to the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. She never felt like it was home like New Hampshire had been in her childhood. So, she had always yearned to come back to NH. That was our starting point. We've visited her other NH family members that remained here many times over the years, and our whole family just really fell in love with NH more than we were feeling the need to stay in VA. NH's small independent business mindset is incredible here, whereas the area we lived in VA was full of big-box and corporate franchise mentality. We LOVE the Mom and Pop feel of Wolfeboro - the Oldest Summer Resort Town in America - where you only find one or two chain stores. Everything else here is independently owned and operated family businesses.
The actual process of finding a new home and business home community was actually a LOT of work. We drove all over NH as a family looking for the right little town after we had done research on communities. We ended up driving about 600+ miles in all directions in the state and saw a ton of great places, but nothing grabbed us like the small business lakeside community of Wolfeboro. With kids in school we not only had to look for a suitable business home, but also a school system for them. In the end, all has worked out fantastic, but the move itself of business and home at the same time was definitely the hardest thing we've ever done. Had we stayed in VA, we had so many wholesale business inquiries coming our way that our business would have simply required a bigger facility and bigger equipment to keep up with all the wholesale business that we were doing. Relocating meant figuring out all the details of shipping coffee to clients that used to be face to face, and of course it meant that we weren't "local" to that area anymore. With the push for "local" economies we worked with our many VA clients as long as we could, but certainly understood when some of them moved to other roasting companies that were closer to them. Where we used to be about 85% wholesale and 15% online retail, we now have a business model that is split about 40% wholesale, 40% retail in our cafe and 20% online retail.
JB: How has the move changed your direction or focus as a coffee professional?
TL: Our move to NH changed the structure of our business in that we used to be mostly wholesale, but now we also have a retail cafe in the front of our roastery. That has changed things dramatically in the sense that we have retail hours which we never had in VA, but it is a welcome change in that we play the part of "coffee educator" on a much more personal level every time someone has questions about specialty coffee. We love being coffee educators every day.
JB: You seem to be very active with promoting change and social equality. That's actually how you and I connected originally. What has Lucas Roasting been involved in recently, and what are some changes locally you'd like to see?
TL: Well, for starters, my professional background before coffee was working in mental health, and my formal training is in mediation and conflict management, so social equality have always been a big focus in my life. When Jennica and I started Lucas Roasting Company, one of our biggest focal points was coffee farmer inequality. Little did we know how intertwined industry issues are and how little we'd be able to actually impact on the front of equity in the coffee continuum. We continue to do as much as we can to educate people on that inequality and doing what we can in our green coffee purchases. Locally, in Wolfeboro, we went to a public Black Lives Matter gathering after George Floyd's death, and we know people in town know where we stand, but it still doesn't feel like we've accomplished much. Our state and our town is mostly white, which is a hard thing for us sometimes since we came from a community that might have had 40 different cultures represented. We live in a resort community - one that is meant to be a destination - and we see many people struggling and slipping through the cracks with lack of affordable housing and lack of upwardly mobile jobs here. I see us getting involved in more discussion in the future around those needs here.
Currently, I am a "Champion" (a fundraising ambassador) for Best Buddies New Hampshire with a little girl and personal friend named Chloe who has Down syndrome, and we are working from September through November to raise awareness and money for that organization. It's an international organization working with people who have all kinds of developmental disabilities, but one of its biggest overall goals is to make sure people are included and that people develop empathy, something sorely lacking in much of our society currently. I'm including the link to my Best Buddies web page if anyone is interested in making a donation. https://www.bestbuddieschampion.org/newhampshire/supporting/#Troy
JB: What are some ideas or thoughts that you think could easily be implemented into the specialty coffee industry to help make a change for the better?
TL: We've thought long and hard for the last 13 years of our company existence in specialty soffee about so many issues, and we have learned that this is a VERY complex industry. One of the things we've seen deteriorate in the 13 years we've been in this industry is flashy marketing agendas taking the place of real substance within companies. The "real substance" is where even we fall short sometimes because the world has changed drastically since we entered specialty coffee. People, in general, seem to be more interested in the immediacy of feeling good in the moment instead of doing long-term work. What I mean by that is that people just want a good cup of coffee or a great espresso, but the general interest in what it has done for another human being on the other side of the world feels like it's getting lost in translation. That circles all the way back around to a main cornerstone of why we entered the coffee industry, and that message of treating others equitably in the trickle-down economics of the price one is paying for a bag of beans or even a cup seems watered down in translation. We don't really know how to change that educational piece when our customers are in a hurry to grab their drinks and usually don't have time for conversation, but for the ones who will listen, we're glad to talk about the front end of the coffee industry and all the challenges facing farming families around the world.
In a world self absorbed with me, me, me, we're happy to be a part of an industry that has so many people in the process of getting coffee from field to cup. We're just glad we can be regular storytellers with our customers so they recognize the industry is about way more than what Lucas Roasting Company does within it. That would be my biggest hope for the future of coffee - that we as companies on the finished side of the product always connect the dots back to its beginnings. We feel that is very important.
So much is changing in our industry and the world around us. Some people are taking chances on dreams they've had, but didn't feel comfortable rolling the dice on until now, and others are tightening up their lives due to the unknowns. I've always been a bit of a risk taker, and when I saw one of our Caffeine Crawl San Diego friends decide to relocate their family-owned coffee business 1,000 miles to the north I was very curious to hear their story.
Vanessa and Justin with Burly and the Bean have been on our Caffeine Crawls in San Diego the last two years. We'll miss them, but are very excited about thewir new chapter in Oregon. Enjoy this interview with Vanessa on their journey from SoCal to Seaside.
- Jason Burton
Vanessa and Justin with Burly and the Bean have been on our Caffeine Crawls in San Diego the last two years. We'll miss them, but are very excited about thewir new chapter in Oregon. Enjoy this interview with Vanessa on their journey from SoCal to Seaside.
- Jason Burton
Vanessa Boone: This is our third week being open at our new location and it has been exhilarating and exhausting to say the least! The last six months have forever changed our lives and we are lucky to have found an exciting new opportunity.
Jason Burton: Was Oregon, or even Seaside on your radar as a possible move going into 2020? If so, what were your main reasons behind the new location?
Vanessa Boone: The beginning of 2020 for Burly and the Bean did not start with high hopes. We were struggling with winter down sales in our outdoor San Diego location of almost five years, and when the pandemic hit by March we were sure this would end our business altogether. We decided to temporarily close our shop and travel to Manzanita, Oregon, and stay with family during those dark, uncertain early months of COVID. We stayed for two months, and only ventured out to take walks on the beach and grocery shopping. During those grocery shopping outings we had noticed a drive thru building that was for lease, and Justin stopped to take down their number just out of curiosity. We didn't think much about it after that. At the end of April we decided it was time to head back and reopen our shop. Upon returning our landlord had a change of heart and decided not to continue the lease due to her not wanting people on her property. Burly and the Bean was located in her backyard so instead of fighting it and drawing it out, we decided to tear it down and close down permanently, which broke our heart as well as our customers and neighbors that had so much love for that spot!
JB: I'm a fan of taking risks, trying something new, and following your heart. That's what it seems like you all have done especially in a crazy time in history. Tell us a little about that process to get where you are.
VB: With no location or revenue, Justin acted quickly to get us back up and had placed a call to the drive thru - starting the process of getting us in. We stayed for a few weeks in San Diego doing a pop-up event that allowed us to reconnect with our customers and with that we were able to stay afloat. With almost nothing but high hopes we left San Diego and signed paperwork for the new spot who worked with us on getting it. They researched us and wanted Burly and the Bean there!
JB: What has changed the most, and for the better in your new environment?
VB: Everything has changed here in Oregon. Our location on the 101 highway has put us front and center in this coffee centric part of the U.S. Everyone drinks coffee and lots of it! Although the drinks being ordered are very different from what we were used to, we feel good about bringing new flavors/concepts that have changed personal preferences since opening.
JB: What kind of vendors are you staying with, and what new resources for supplies are you having to get that's closer to you with the move? Does the new location change your direction with drink sizes, more RTD, etc.? Obviously, with COVID variables are changing anyway.
VB: Supplies have been our biggest expense and headache just due to our location, which is about two hours away from Portland. This creates shortages within the supply chain in our area and there are a lot of businesses that are competing for the same supplies in the busiest season as well. So, for the first time we will be possibly ordering through US Foods to eliminate some of that stress. Also, we did create a menu, but here in this area people tend to order what they want and almost demand it if not being provided. We have items that we do carry and sell but do not like, such as Redbull spritzers with flavored syrups, but people love them and pay high prices for them so we do now!
Jason Burton: Was Oregon, or even Seaside on your radar as a possible move going into 2020? If so, what were your main reasons behind the new location?
Vanessa Boone: The beginning of 2020 for Burly and the Bean did not start with high hopes. We were struggling with winter down sales in our outdoor San Diego location of almost five years, and when the pandemic hit by March we were sure this would end our business altogether. We decided to temporarily close our shop and travel to Manzanita, Oregon, and stay with family during those dark, uncertain early months of COVID. We stayed for two months, and only ventured out to take walks on the beach and grocery shopping. During those grocery shopping outings we had noticed a drive thru building that was for lease, and Justin stopped to take down their number just out of curiosity. We didn't think much about it after that. At the end of April we decided it was time to head back and reopen our shop. Upon returning our landlord had a change of heart and decided not to continue the lease due to her not wanting people on her property. Burly and the Bean was located in her backyard so instead of fighting it and drawing it out, we decided to tear it down and close down permanently, which broke our heart as well as our customers and neighbors that had so much love for that spot!
JB: I'm a fan of taking risks, trying something new, and following your heart. That's what it seems like you all have done especially in a crazy time in history. Tell us a little about that process to get where you are.
VB: With no location or revenue, Justin acted quickly to get us back up and had placed a call to the drive thru - starting the process of getting us in. We stayed for a few weeks in San Diego doing a pop-up event that allowed us to reconnect with our customers and with that we were able to stay afloat. With almost nothing but high hopes we left San Diego and signed paperwork for the new spot who worked with us on getting it. They researched us and wanted Burly and the Bean there!
JB: What has changed the most, and for the better in your new environment?
VB: Everything has changed here in Oregon. Our location on the 101 highway has put us front and center in this coffee centric part of the U.S. Everyone drinks coffee and lots of it! Although the drinks being ordered are very different from what we were used to, we feel good about bringing new flavors/concepts that have changed personal preferences since opening.
JB: What kind of vendors are you staying with, and what new resources for supplies are you having to get that's closer to you with the move? Does the new location change your direction with drink sizes, more RTD, etc.? Obviously, with COVID variables are changing anyway.
VB: Supplies have been our biggest expense and headache just due to our location, which is about two hours away from Portland. This creates shortages within the supply chain in our area and there are a lot of businesses that are competing for the same supplies in the busiest season as well. So, for the first time we will be possibly ordering through US Foods to eliminate some of that stress. Also, we did create a menu, but here in this area people tend to order what they want and almost demand it if not being provided. We have items that we do carry and sell but do not like, such as Redbull spritzers with flavored syrups, but people love them and pay high prices for them so we do now!
Michelle and I go way back with our mutual love and professional experiences for quality beverages. Together we've worked on craft beer and Caffeine Crawl projects. Michelle has been a tour guide for several Crawls, and presented on many more. With her many experiences around the industry and dealing with customer service I wanted to hear more about her challenges as a coffee lover and professional.
- Jason Burton
- Jason Burton
Jason Burton: Where do you see the coffee industry going, or changing post-COVID 19?
Michelle Bui: COVID-19 has caused a lot of coffee shops to have to rethink how they have been serving customers, and I'm excited to see it. Maybe they've looked into online ordering, texting orders to a store number, or even making new menu items and offerings for patrons to stay home longer like half gallon draft lattes or cold brew concentrate. Although the "snooty" cafes are falling by the wayside, I feel this would push them more to being more accommodating to the public. They can't say "anything the size of a cappuccino or smaller has to be served in house" for safety reasons, so now is a good time to reevaluate what they need to do to keep business coming through.
JB: Have you faced discrimination, and/or racism working in coffee? Can you give an examle where that could have been avoided, or advice that the industry should implement to help education in these areas?
MB: I think I would have to be living in a bubble or be very oblivious to the world if I didn't experience discrimination in the 10 years I've worked in the coffee industry. They can be subtle things like asking how I could be bad at math as an Asian when I struggle counting money back sometimes. It could be not knowing the geography of some Asian coffee origins even though I may not even know what country it was from to begin with. I don't have much advice specifically to the industry because they're just bigoted comments that can be avoided with society learning when, and when to not say racist things. Hint: the answer is never. I think the industry knows what it needs to do to fix its systemic racism and biases. It's to create a more inclusive culture for BIPOC, LGBTQIA+ and even women. It's no surprise that the industry has been extremely white cis-male centric and it doesn't really look like that'll be changing anytime soon until it is acknowledged and accepted. Some people apply to work at Cafe Elemental because they see that it's very female/female identifying forward, but that shouldn't have to be why someone wants to be there. It should be because we have good coffee, have a good community and have good relationships.
Something that has made it difficult to know what shops care and are truly inclusive is the near "requirement" it is to publicly say they are inclusive. With the Black Lives Matter movement, companies were expected to say they support BLM and would do something to support the cause and their communities. I may be a cynic, but I knew that several of those places weren't really genuine and didn't really care to make a difference in their communities. They were more afraid of being called out for not making a statement. Because of the required response, it makes it difficult to know what shops are truly safe spaces for BIPOC or marginalized communities.
I have had a lot of thoughts about how companies have responded to the movement, racism and equity and inclusion. As a female minority who is often times the only minority on boards or on staff, the conversation of "we need to hire more BIPOC" comes up a lot and eyes fall onto me. My response: making it a requirement to bring more BIPOC to the table for the sake of having more diversity makes us innately more racist. There is no blanket answer to this question. It is something each shop and/or community needs to ask themselves and question internally what the cause of the lack of diversity really is. A lot of places may not like the answers they find.
JB: As someone who has been in the coffee profession for awhile what is the drink you are most likely to get, or make that coffee snobs would frown upon?
MB: I didn't think it was that out there, but coworkers gave me very weird looks when I asked for an iced dirty Chai with oat milk. Usually I drink a cortado or black coffee, but it's hard to say no to Chai sometimes.
JB: Do you spend much time online and reading about what's going on in the industry? Do you think that topic is losing or gaining interest among industry pros?
MB: I actually don't keep up with industry readings for some reason. I'm subscribed to several newsletters, but they often get lost in my inbox. I'm not sure if others are experiencing the same information fatigue as me, but it seems like just another thing to try to keep up with when there are a thousand things already happening in our worlds.
Michelle Bui: COVID-19 has caused a lot of coffee shops to have to rethink how they have been serving customers, and I'm excited to see it. Maybe they've looked into online ordering, texting orders to a store number, or even making new menu items and offerings for patrons to stay home longer like half gallon draft lattes or cold brew concentrate. Although the "snooty" cafes are falling by the wayside, I feel this would push them more to being more accommodating to the public. They can't say "anything the size of a cappuccino or smaller has to be served in house" for safety reasons, so now is a good time to reevaluate what they need to do to keep business coming through.
JB: Have you faced discrimination, and/or racism working in coffee? Can you give an examle where that could have been avoided, or advice that the industry should implement to help education in these areas?
MB: I think I would have to be living in a bubble or be very oblivious to the world if I didn't experience discrimination in the 10 years I've worked in the coffee industry. They can be subtle things like asking how I could be bad at math as an Asian when I struggle counting money back sometimes. It could be not knowing the geography of some Asian coffee origins even though I may not even know what country it was from to begin with. I don't have much advice specifically to the industry because they're just bigoted comments that can be avoided with society learning when, and when to not say racist things. Hint: the answer is never. I think the industry knows what it needs to do to fix its systemic racism and biases. It's to create a more inclusive culture for BIPOC, LGBTQIA+ and even women. It's no surprise that the industry has been extremely white cis-male centric and it doesn't really look like that'll be changing anytime soon until it is acknowledged and accepted. Some people apply to work at Cafe Elemental because they see that it's very female/female identifying forward, but that shouldn't have to be why someone wants to be there. It should be because we have good coffee, have a good community and have good relationships.
Something that has made it difficult to know what shops care and are truly inclusive is the near "requirement" it is to publicly say they are inclusive. With the Black Lives Matter movement, companies were expected to say they support BLM and would do something to support the cause and their communities. I may be a cynic, but I knew that several of those places weren't really genuine and didn't really care to make a difference in their communities. They were more afraid of being called out for not making a statement. Because of the required response, it makes it difficult to know what shops are truly safe spaces for BIPOC or marginalized communities.
I have had a lot of thoughts about how companies have responded to the movement, racism and equity and inclusion. As a female minority who is often times the only minority on boards or on staff, the conversation of "we need to hire more BIPOC" comes up a lot and eyes fall onto me. My response: making it a requirement to bring more BIPOC to the table for the sake of having more diversity makes us innately more racist. There is no blanket answer to this question. It is something each shop and/or community needs to ask themselves and question internally what the cause of the lack of diversity really is. A lot of places may not like the answers they find.
JB: As someone who has been in the coffee profession for awhile what is the drink you are most likely to get, or make that coffee snobs would frown upon?
MB: I didn't think it was that out there, but coworkers gave me very weird looks when I asked for an iced dirty Chai with oat milk. Usually I drink a cortado or black coffee, but it's hard to say no to Chai sometimes.
JB: Do you spend much time online and reading about what's going on in the industry? Do you think that topic is losing or gaining interest among industry pros?
MB: I actually don't keep up with industry readings for some reason. I'm subscribed to several newsletters, but they often get lost in my inbox. I'm not sure if others are experiencing the same information fatigue as me, but it seems like just another thing to try to keep up with when there are a thousand things already happening in our worlds.
Renae and I found many common interests on a Caffeine Crawl in Indianapolis years ago. We've stayed in touch, and check in with one another on everything from campus life, coffee, relationships, and so much more. Renae has a ton of insight being around college students and counseling in the academic world, plus a passion for good coffee. This was a good chance to learn more about her experiences from the path she's traveled.
- Jason Burton
- Jason Burton
Jason Burton: Do you feel like specialty coffee marketing speaks to you as a black woman?
Renea Mayes: Not in particular. It seems more marketed to white women if any women at all. I see commercials/marketing that don't really have anyone who looks like me or that bring in related topics or work that impacts my community. It seems like there may be an effort to be more neutral, but that neutral defaults always to whiteness.
JB: What is a common situation in coffee shops that make your experience as a customer uncomfortable, or difficult? What are ways the shops can make changes to eliminate this situation?
RM: I always walk into a coffee shop, which is never in my neighborhood because for some reason that's not allowed, and I recognize instantly that I'm often the only Black person there as a customer and as a staff. The colors, while bright and color, of the space might be beautiful, but there is virtually no representation of Blackness - no art or design in that way. Sometimes music, but it's usually some pop or rock, maybe some oldies. It just doesn't feel like a space that Blackness is wanted despite wanting my dollars. Then interactions with staff and customers is weird. There may be a comment, or dare I say a touching of hair, which is completely inappropriate. If they ask my name, they write it on my cup in a spelling that feels like they are trying to make me exotic.
It would first, be great to have coffee in my own neighborhood, that was created and designed with people in my neighborhood/Black folx in general. Also, how might the staff of such be reflective of the community it serves? How can coffee shops be an extension of neighborhood and community spaces that allow gathering? These are things I would love to see while also keeping coffee accessible - I know more about coffee because of Caffeine Crawl, but that knowledge is still limited. It would be great to see coffee shops be spaces of even learning about that process and also coffee shops being transparent about business practices from growing to selling beans. How is that process sustainable, green, and honor the very people who make it happen?
JB: What area of the coffee industry from your experience seems the most under represented for Black people, and what are some ideas/thoughts on how that should change?
RM: I think my thoughts in #2 speak to this.
JB: You have a unique experience spending a lot of time with college students. Do you notice more friends coming together from different races in coffee shop settings with the younger generation?
RM: I think there is a desire to do such. There is a lot of places needed that are sober spaces - spaces that one can gather, hang out, etc. without having to drink. That's limited on a college campus outside of class time. Many students, especially BIPoC/Queer/Trans students find community in the multicultural centers that often have offices/spaces for students to gather. There usually isn't amenities like coffee or food in those spaces for some reason. Partnerships towards that end or even a joint efforts/collaboration around those spaces would be helpful to keep those spaces as special/sacred/sober spaces while supporting students where they feel most comfortable.
Renea Mayes: Not in particular. It seems more marketed to white women if any women at all. I see commercials/marketing that don't really have anyone who looks like me or that bring in related topics or work that impacts my community. It seems like there may be an effort to be more neutral, but that neutral defaults always to whiteness.
JB: What is a common situation in coffee shops that make your experience as a customer uncomfortable, or difficult? What are ways the shops can make changes to eliminate this situation?
RM: I always walk into a coffee shop, which is never in my neighborhood because for some reason that's not allowed, and I recognize instantly that I'm often the only Black person there as a customer and as a staff. The colors, while bright and color, of the space might be beautiful, but there is virtually no representation of Blackness - no art or design in that way. Sometimes music, but it's usually some pop or rock, maybe some oldies. It just doesn't feel like a space that Blackness is wanted despite wanting my dollars. Then interactions with staff and customers is weird. There may be a comment, or dare I say a touching of hair, which is completely inappropriate. If they ask my name, they write it on my cup in a spelling that feels like they are trying to make me exotic.
It would first, be great to have coffee in my own neighborhood, that was created and designed with people in my neighborhood/Black folx in general. Also, how might the staff of such be reflective of the community it serves? How can coffee shops be an extension of neighborhood and community spaces that allow gathering? These are things I would love to see while also keeping coffee accessible - I know more about coffee because of Caffeine Crawl, but that knowledge is still limited. It would be great to see coffee shops be spaces of even learning about that process and also coffee shops being transparent about business practices from growing to selling beans. How is that process sustainable, green, and honor the very people who make it happen?
JB: What area of the coffee industry from your experience seems the most under represented for Black people, and what are some ideas/thoughts on how that should change?
RM: I think my thoughts in #2 speak to this.
JB: You have a unique experience spending a lot of time with college students. Do you notice more friends coming together from different races in coffee shop settings with the younger generation?
RM: I think there is a desire to do such. There is a lot of places needed that are sober spaces - spaces that one can gather, hang out, etc. without having to drink. That's limited on a college campus outside of class time. Many students, especially BIPoC/Queer/Trans students find community in the multicultural centers that often have offices/spaces for students to gather. There usually isn't amenities like coffee or food in those spaces for some reason. Partnerships towards that end or even a joint efforts/collaboration around those spaces would be helpful to keep those spaces as special/sacred/sober spaces while supporting students where they feel most comfortable.
I met Mel on a Houston Caffeine Crawl a few years back, and we connected right away. She was a teammate on our Houston event in February. Like everyone that is a part of the Caffeine Crawl team in various cities, Mel and I keep in touch, and talk about a lot more than just coffee. Below is my Q&A with Mel addressing her experience as an avid coffee consumer as a black woman. - Jason Burton
Jason Burton: Do you feel like specialty coffee marketing speaks to you as a black woman?
Mel Perry: I’m seriously trying to think about the various cities in which I’ve enjoyed specialty coffee and not just limit my answer to Houston. I would have to say generally speaking, no. Whether it’s social media or just walking into a coffee shop, 95% of the time it does not feel as if blacks are included in the targeted audience.
Overall, I think the specialty coffee industry does a poor job marketing to the general consumer. Bring black people, or even black women, into the equation and I would say there is even less marketing being done to reach us. I’m not sure people understand how much coffee is a part of the black culture. It seems that the current push to market to black women may be more towards the industry side. I’ll pick this up in the third question…
Starbucks has managed to be the main go-to for most black men and women I know. Their marketing, despite the controversy that happened the other year, seems to be ethnically neutral. When you walk into a store it doesn’t feel like this is a “white people’s thing”. There is a general sense of comfort. The way they package their coffee, the furniture, their non-coffee products, the music that is played in the stores, the people working in the store, and often being located in places where people will see them gives them an advantage over other specialty coffee stores and roasters…
Location, when we speak of specialty coffee shops, especially here in Houston, they are generally located in areas that do not have a high volume of traffic of everyday black women. Another note, locally, I don’t see many specialty coffee shops engaging the black community. I know that some shops have mobile cafes that you may see at any number of functions in the city. However, I don’t see them involved, really, at events within the black community. Which goes along with my answer for question 3. There is little effort to really get to know or introduce specialty coffee to the urban communities.
Lastly, seeing black people representing specialty coffee on social media is rare. Very few coffee shops, roasters, associations show their black patrons or industry partners on their social media outlets. There are the same two or three black faces that you may see at a competition, and that is seldom seen by most consumers. I don’t see many of the black roasters or coffee shops being featured enough on social media. If I happen to glance through a random coffee magazine I may see a black person. But then how many consumers even know about coffee publications.
I think BLK & Bold coffee (a black-owned coffee roasting company) is capitalizing on the lack of marketing to the black community. The packaging appeals to the black community, their use of the consumer (which is ethnically diverse) on their social media page is way more than most in the industry, the constant presence of a female black celebrity – Kelly Rowlands – who does IG Live videos while talking about drinking the best coffee she’s ever had, the reminder that a portion of each bag sold goes to support youth in the urban community, and their informative video post is an example of marketing to black women, and more broadly people of color.
JB: What is a common situation in coffee shops that make your experience as a customer uncomfortable, or difficult? What are ways the shops can make changes to eliminate this situation?
MP: This is a difficult one. Being that I love to visit coffee shops when I travel, I usually keep in mind that there are different regional cultural behaviors. For instance, NYC is not known for being a city where you just walk into a place and expect the person behind the counter to engage in conversation. So wanting to know about the beans they are using in their espresso drink may result in a quick name of the roaster and that’s it. While I may go to Austin and get a whole history on the beans and the roaster and everything else. I can’t say that I have ever really felt uncomfortable or had a difficult moment. But there have been times when I’ve gone into a shop and felt like I had stepped into an unwelcoming country; you are greeted with a mere glance and nothing more.
Being a person who grew up in the age of Frasier and Friends as well as the early growth expansion of Starbucks, I came to see the new wave of coffee shops as a place of engagement. You felt invited in. Often, I’ve walked into a shop and seen a conversation between a barista and customer, walk up next and get a “cool” look and a not so welcoming tone of “Yes, what would like?” or a dry “Hi.” and a stare. While that is not a problem for me, because I like the challenge of forcing people to engage me as an experienced consumer, it could be very off-putting for most blacks. We are not keen on spending our money where we don’t feel we are desired or wanted. I’ve talked to some black friends here in Houston and we have talked about shops that are very “unwelcoming” in their engagement though having really good coffee. Some baristas can be very snooty or snobbish. Of course, that can be a result of those who have migrated here. But, I think that is a common behavior I’ve noticed in many shops during my travel, though it is slowly changing.
Another thing, black women tend to want to know what they are getting. It is not uncommon for a black woman to ask a restaurant how they prepare something or where the tilapia they are serving comes from, lol. There is nothing more off-putting to ask a question or hear a person asking a question about the coffee menu or the size of the drinks and the response leaves you feeling like you asked the dumbest question. I’ve seen that happen a few times. In the day of a Starbucks on every other corner, having a customer for a venti macchiato should be expected. Just be courteous and explain the difference in your drink and sizes.
JB: What area of the coffee industry from your experience seems the most underrepresented for Black people, and what are some ideas/thoughts on how that should change?
MP: Where do I start, lol? Seriously, while I notice there are blacks in certain parts of the country becoming more involved in the “behind the counter” side of the industry, bringing coffee into the communities where black people are is still lacking. Usually, if you find a coffee shop in or near a predominantly black community it is because gentrification is taking over. I’m seeing a few more black baristas, mainly males, these days in coffee shops. And that is wonderful to see, finally, people who look like me! Now, I would love to drive through a black community and see a black-owned, or shop managed by a black person.
I like what one coffee shop here in Houston is doing, The Doshi House. It sits in the heart of Third Ward, a historically black neighborhood. It is minority-owned, South Asian (I believe), but many of the workers are black and from the area. Located in a cultural development area, they have created a space that is inviting for the business person, the working-class, teachers who want to bring their students on an educational outing, the artist, and anyone else. It is literally a space behind the building that invites you to engage in conversation, host a class on gardening, meet with your yoga group, or simply enjoy your coffee while working on a school paper. It belongs in the community – an urban community with small businesses, two universities, a nice size senior population, and a growing number of black influencers. They have found a way to fit into a community that most would think would not be open to a specialty coffee shop.
As I stated earlier, coffee is such a part of black culture that to not invest in marketing, educating, and investing in opening coffee shops in black neighborhoods is major dollars lost. One of the first things that may need to happen is coffee education geared towards blacks, much in the same way that the wine industry is starting to understand that they have overlooked a community who enjoys fine wine when dining out, really wants to learn more about it, and become involved in various parts of the industry. So now there is a new push to bring blacks into every level of the wine industry. So I think educating the consumer is so important. Without the education of the little green bean, you may have a hard time convincing me to spend $5 for a six-ounce flat white. I think Caffeine Crawl in many ways is an educational tool for consumers. Some of the coffee shops in the city also host educational events, but the invitation doesn’t always make its way to the black community or it is hosted in areas of the city which many blacks may not visit.
Last year a black male friend of mine from high school stated that his dream is to open a coffee shop in the “hood”, creating a space for the older people in the community to come and enjoy conversation, spend time playing dominos or cards, or just relaxing with a newspaper. This space would be ideal for black women who wanted to hang out with their girlfriends or just get away from the family and enjoy a book. He’s not your specialty coffee guru, but he knows how important space and coffee is to black people. Instead of the neighborhood bar, the neighborhood coffee shop…so, it really is about understanding the culture of the neighborhood – instead of outlets and small tables for laptops, exchange them with tables for games of domino and cards, and seats for conversation. Creating community for a different community, the black community.
JB: Anything you'd like to add? Would love to hear it and share, if so.
MEL: Hopefully, more black people will choose to go into the coffee industry, whether it’s working with farmers and roasters, working as a barista and learning the business, becoming a coffee shop owner, or even as communicators (bloggers or magazine contributors). And hopefully, the industry is ready to embrace more black people into the industry. I think it will take both sides making moves to help make specialty coffee more accessible to black people. Since I was young I have believed that coffee has a way of bringing people together. Old black people in the south can’t start a day without a prayer and a cup of coffee. And when their neighbor comes over for a short spell, there is a fresh pot of coffee on the stove waiting to initiate a few hours of conversation. One can hope that something as common as coffee can bring communities together to engage in learning and understanding in the very same way that many coffee shop owners and roasters have taken upon themselves to travel to Ethiopia, Burundi, Rwanda, Colombia, Coast Rica, and all the other coffee regions of the world to learn about the people behind the coffee. It’s one thing to love the precious people of Kenya who grow the coffee you sell in your shop. But, it’s another thing to love and care about the people in your own country who look like the people who grow your crop. It is so easy to invite more black people to the table for a cup of coffee and some conversation…
Mel Perry: I’m seriously trying to think about the various cities in which I’ve enjoyed specialty coffee and not just limit my answer to Houston. I would have to say generally speaking, no. Whether it’s social media or just walking into a coffee shop, 95% of the time it does not feel as if blacks are included in the targeted audience.
Overall, I think the specialty coffee industry does a poor job marketing to the general consumer. Bring black people, or even black women, into the equation and I would say there is even less marketing being done to reach us. I’m not sure people understand how much coffee is a part of the black culture. It seems that the current push to market to black women may be more towards the industry side. I’ll pick this up in the third question…
Starbucks has managed to be the main go-to for most black men and women I know. Their marketing, despite the controversy that happened the other year, seems to be ethnically neutral. When you walk into a store it doesn’t feel like this is a “white people’s thing”. There is a general sense of comfort. The way they package their coffee, the furniture, their non-coffee products, the music that is played in the stores, the people working in the store, and often being located in places where people will see them gives them an advantage over other specialty coffee stores and roasters…
Location, when we speak of specialty coffee shops, especially here in Houston, they are generally located in areas that do not have a high volume of traffic of everyday black women. Another note, locally, I don’t see many specialty coffee shops engaging the black community. I know that some shops have mobile cafes that you may see at any number of functions in the city. However, I don’t see them involved, really, at events within the black community. Which goes along with my answer for question 3. There is little effort to really get to know or introduce specialty coffee to the urban communities.
Lastly, seeing black people representing specialty coffee on social media is rare. Very few coffee shops, roasters, associations show their black patrons or industry partners on their social media outlets. There are the same two or three black faces that you may see at a competition, and that is seldom seen by most consumers. I don’t see many of the black roasters or coffee shops being featured enough on social media. If I happen to glance through a random coffee magazine I may see a black person. But then how many consumers even know about coffee publications.
I think BLK & Bold coffee (a black-owned coffee roasting company) is capitalizing on the lack of marketing to the black community. The packaging appeals to the black community, their use of the consumer (which is ethnically diverse) on their social media page is way more than most in the industry, the constant presence of a female black celebrity – Kelly Rowlands – who does IG Live videos while talking about drinking the best coffee she’s ever had, the reminder that a portion of each bag sold goes to support youth in the urban community, and their informative video post is an example of marketing to black women, and more broadly people of color.
JB: What is a common situation in coffee shops that make your experience as a customer uncomfortable, or difficult? What are ways the shops can make changes to eliminate this situation?
MP: This is a difficult one. Being that I love to visit coffee shops when I travel, I usually keep in mind that there are different regional cultural behaviors. For instance, NYC is not known for being a city where you just walk into a place and expect the person behind the counter to engage in conversation. So wanting to know about the beans they are using in their espresso drink may result in a quick name of the roaster and that’s it. While I may go to Austin and get a whole history on the beans and the roaster and everything else. I can’t say that I have ever really felt uncomfortable or had a difficult moment. But there have been times when I’ve gone into a shop and felt like I had stepped into an unwelcoming country; you are greeted with a mere glance and nothing more.
Being a person who grew up in the age of Frasier and Friends as well as the early growth expansion of Starbucks, I came to see the new wave of coffee shops as a place of engagement. You felt invited in. Often, I’ve walked into a shop and seen a conversation between a barista and customer, walk up next and get a “cool” look and a not so welcoming tone of “Yes, what would like?” or a dry “Hi.” and a stare. While that is not a problem for me, because I like the challenge of forcing people to engage me as an experienced consumer, it could be very off-putting for most blacks. We are not keen on spending our money where we don’t feel we are desired or wanted. I’ve talked to some black friends here in Houston and we have talked about shops that are very “unwelcoming” in their engagement though having really good coffee. Some baristas can be very snooty or snobbish. Of course, that can be a result of those who have migrated here. But, I think that is a common behavior I’ve noticed in many shops during my travel, though it is slowly changing.
Another thing, black women tend to want to know what they are getting. It is not uncommon for a black woman to ask a restaurant how they prepare something or where the tilapia they are serving comes from, lol. There is nothing more off-putting to ask a question or hear a person asking a question about the coffee menu or the size of the drinks and the response leaves you feeling like you asked the dumbest question. I’ve seen that happen a few times. In the day of a Starbucks on every other corner, having a customer for a venti macchiato should be expected. Just be courteous and explain the difference in your drink and sizes.
JB: What area of the coffee industry from your experience seems the most underrepresented for Black people, and what are some ideas/thoughts on how that should change?
MP: Where do I start, lol? Seriously, while I notice there are blacks in certain parts of the country becoming more involved in the “behind the counter” side of the industry, bringing coffee into the communities where black people are is still lacking. Usually, if you find a coffee shop in or near a predominantly black community it is because gentrification is taking over. I’m seeing a few more black baristas, mainly males, these days in coffee shops. And that is wonderful to see, finally, people who look like me! Now, I would love to drive through a black community and see a black-owned, or shop managed by a black person.
I like what one coffee shop here in Houston is doing, The Doshi House. It sits in the heart of Third Ward, a historically black neighborhood. It is minority-owned, South Asian (I believe), but many of the workers are black and from the area. Located in a cultural development area, they have created a space that is inviting for the business person, the working-class, teachers who want to bring their students on an educational outing, the artist, and anyone else. It is literally a space behind the building that invites you to engage in conversation, host a class on gardening, meet with your yoga group, or simply enjoy your coffee while working on a school paper. It belongs in the community – an urban community with small businesses, two universities, a nice size senior population, and a growing number of black influencers. They have found a way to fit into a community that most would think would not be open to a specialty coffee shop.
As I stated earlier, coffee is such a part of black culture that to not invest in marketing, educating, and investing in opening coffee shops in black neighborhoods is major dollars lost. One of the first things that may need to happen is coffee education geared towards blacks, much in the same way that the wine industry is starting to understand that they have overlooked a community who enjoys fine wine when dining out, really wants to learn more about it, and become involved in various parts of the industry. So now there is a new push to bring blacks into every level of the wine industry. So I think educating the consumer is so important. Without the education of the little green bean, you may have a hard time convincing me to spend $5 for a six-ounce flat white. I think Caffeine Crawl in many ways is an educational tool for consumers. Some of the coffee shops in the city also host educational events, but the invitation doesn’t always make its way to the black community or it is hosted in areas of the city which many blacks may not visit.
Last year a black male friend of mine from high school stated that his dream is to open a coffee shop in the “hood”, creating a space for the older people in the community to come and enjoy conversation, spend time playing dominos or cards, or just relaxing with a newspaper. This space would be ideal for black women who wanted to hang out with their girlfriends or just get away from the family and enjoy a book. He’s not your specialty coffee guru, but he knows how important space and coffee is to black people. Instead of the neighborhood bar, the neighborhood coffee shop…so, it really is about understanding the culture of the neighborhood – instead of outlets and small tables for laptops, exchange them with tables for games of domino and cards, and seats for conversation. Creating community for a different community, the black community.
JB: Anything you'd like to add? Would love to hear it and share, if so.
MEL: Hopefully, more black people will choose to go into the coffee industry, whether it’s working with farmers and roasters, working as a barista and learning the business, becoming a coffee shop owner, or even as communicators (bloggers or magazine contributors). And hopefully, the industry is ready to embrace more black people into the industry. I think it will take both sides making moves to help make specialty coffee more accessible to black people. Since I was young I have believed that coffee has a way of bringing people together. Old black people in the south can’t start a day without a prayer and a cup of coffee. And when their neighbor comes over for a short spell, there is a fresh pot of coffee on the stove waiting to initiate a few hours of conversation. One can hope that something as common as coffee can bring communities together to engage in learning and understanding in the very same way that many coffee shop owners and roasters have taken upon themselves to travel to Ethiopia, Burundi, Rwanda, Colombia, Coast Rica, and all the other coffee regions of the world to learn about the people behind the coffee. It’s one thing to love the precious people of Kenya who grow the coffee you sell in your shop. But, it’s another thing to love and care about the people in your own country who look like the people who grow your crop. It is so easy to invite more black people to the table for a cup of coffee and some conversation…